Ep 42. Let's Talk Building & Pest Inspections
In this episode, Michelle chats with Daniel Leahy from Dwell Property Inspections about the importance of building and pest inspections.
Here’s what you’ll learn from today’s episode:
We discuss the Qualifications and Background of Building Inspectors here in NSW
The importance of due diligence when purchasing a property, including the need for an independent building and pest inspection
What does a building and pest inspection entail and why they’re an important step in the buying process
Why property maintenance, including roof and subfloor inspections is so important and how regular inspections and maintenance are crucial for preserving property value and avoiding unexpected repair costs.
Speakers in today’s episode:
Michelle May - Michelle May Buyers Agents
Daniel Leahy - Dwell Property
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This podcast has been produced and edited by Snappystreet Creative
Please note that any views or opinions presented in this podcast are solely those of the speakers, and do not necessarily represent those of any business. These views and opinions are general in nature, and do not take account of your personal objectives, financial situation and needs. Please consider whether it applies in your circumstances and seek professional advice wherever appropriate.
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VIEW TRANSCRIPT
Michelle May: Hi, and welcome to another episode of the Buy Your Side Podcast. My name is Michelle May and I am the principal of Michelle May Buyers Agents here in Sydney. Now as you may well know, if you've listened to a few episodes here and there, I am always hammering on about doing your due diligence and that includes getting your own building and pest inspection.
To delve in that a little bit further, I've invited Daniel Leahy who is a building inspector at Dwell Properties Inspections. And we work with Daniel quite a lot to make sure that the houses that we do look into for our clients are worth buying. So Daniel, thank you so much for joining me today.
Daniel Leahy: Morning.
I've got a few questions for you that will help the listeners understand a bit better why I always go on about making sure that you do get your own independent building and pest inspection. But I first wanted to ask you, how did your journey go from where you were before to becoming a building and pest inspector?
And are there any minimum requirements to become one?
Daniel Leahy: That's a really good question. New South Wales is kind of its own beast within Australia, and it might surprise and terrify people to learn that there are no formal requirements to be a building and pest inspector in New South Wales. So basically I've come from a background as a carpenter.
I moved through to doing my builder's certificate. Naturally, just through the course of my career, I gravitated towards inspecting. I had roles as finishing foreman handing over properties. That sort of took me into the insurance industry where I did some contract assessing during storms. And, not every builder sort of would go down that avenue.
It's not appealing to a lot of people. I know friends who are builders that have no interest in inspecting and reporting and those sorts of things. So I found it was quite a niche sort of part of learning. Everything there is to know about building a house and then applying that at the other end of the scale, as opposed to actually building.
So I did build for years, but the course of my career just took me down an inspecting route where I started looking into building and pest inspections after doing insurance assessments and did some courses with Master Builders. Again, there are no formal requirements or formal education.
Michelle May: Wow, that blows my mind.
Daniel Leahy: When you're looking at a building inspector, it's really important to find out about their past and about their career and what they've learned. For mine, if you didn't do an apprenticeship, as a carpenter in New South Wales, every state has their own set of building requirements and different building standards.
So if you didn't learn to build a house in New South Wales, in my opinion, you have no business looking at a house that's been built in New South Wales for a client.
Michelle May: Yeah, because it's amazing to me. Obviously more and more it's becoming a phenomenon that most vendors or agents will supply heavily discounted reports or even free reports. Quite often they come from those franchises, I won't name any names, but they're basically a tick-the-box report that's usually no longer than say 15 pages. So you're telling me that literally I could become one of those franchises and set myself up as a building and pest inspector, having no experience whatsoever, do the report and there you go.
Daniel Leahy: Yeah. I can't speak for the franchises as to what background checks they do for the guys that buy franchises. But at the end of the day, they offer purchasing a franchise and training. Again, on the topic of education, being a builder, people think that the builder's course teaches you about building, which is another misconception.
The Cert IIII in building and construction is basically a course on how to run a construction company. It's more of a business management course. So the only real way that the industry is regulated is by the builder's professional indemnity insurance. You cannot get that insurance unless you have a Cert IIII in building and have done the necessary timber pest modules and statement of attainments.
Michelle May: Yeah, right. And how long would it take in general to get that certification then?
Daniel Leahy: Again, you don't have to have a background in carpentry or anything to do the builder's course, that can be obtained in as little as six months with some recognition of prior learning, which doesn't necessarily relate to carpentry.
It can relate to being in any other trade like an electrician, or bricklayer, so a lot of guys doing building and pest inspections have never actually built a house as a builder. As I mentioned, insurance is unfortunately the only thing regulating the industry in New South Wales at the moment, which is pretty scary.
Michelle May: I'm really surprised by that.
Daniel Leahy: A lot of people that have done their research call me and they've obviously, through their own research, become wary of this. They are the people who ask me those questions about my work history. And they're like, sorry, they feel awkward.
And I'm like, no, that's fantastic you're asking. Because as I mentioned, if you haven't grown up building houses in New South Wales, is that the person you want looking at the house you're buying and telling you whether it's adequate?
Michelle May: Well, absolutely. I think, I mean, it's very similar in some respects in my industry where it's quite easy to set yourself up as a buyers agent. And I think that there's particularly what I've seen recently in the last couple of years. There are some that talk the talk, but really, they have no experience whatsoever. I doubt they'd even bought for themselves or for others, prior to setting themselves up and calling themselves an expert.
And I wonder what kind of advice they're really giving them. I mean, based on the kind of properties they're buying for their clients and what they're paying for them, they're clearly not very good. But as a buyer, how would you know that without asking the relevant questions prior to engaging them, right.
Daniel Leahy: I work with a lot of buyers agents, obviously as well. And I see the difference in the way that they operate, the way that they do things. And exactly what you said, the price that people are paying for things. At the end of it, you're thinking, are you really doing this person a service in what you've done?
You've essentially overpaid to you know, obtain your commission at the end. And a lot of that is similar in building and pest inspections as well. Guys will go through exactly like you said, do the absolute minimum requirements, and fill out the checkboxes at the end of the day, leaving you with a lot of open-ended questions and potentially in a more confusing situation.
Whereas I endeavour to stick my neck out a little bit more as part of my reports to be a bit more decisive and direct in my advice, which is risky in a sense, if other building inspectors are listening to this, but that comes from confidence in my abilities and my experience as a carpenter and as a builder.
Michelle May: You certainly helped us out very recently, less than a month ago in a house in Leichhardt in the Inner West where there was a little bit of time pressure because it was a private treaty. So, it was a sale where first in best dressed, whoever made an acceptable offer was going to get it across the line.
You know, we insisted on getting you through and lo and behold, there were some very expensive things there that would have to be rectified in the future. And a lot of unknowns too, right?
Ended up us walking away and that house did sell for more than 2.3 million I believe, I doubt very much that those people got that independent advice.
Daniel Leahy: The agents did have the franchise report available and no doubt we have a lot of these inner city places or they're filled with access limitations and potential in this instance. It's never my prerogative starting a job to make people walk away from a house and that's why agents don't really like us. They think that that's all we're doing. If a client's engaged me, they want to buy this property and I just want to help them understand the property as thoroughly as possible.
If my findings don't align with what they're looking for, then that should be the way that these things work. Now the agents are steering things in a way to make the property look as desirable as possible and potentially get someone on the hook. And that specific property had some extensive termite damage.
You know, sometimes we find termite damage and it's at a sort of reasonable level, but that has some pretty major termite issues. And with the construction type, the risk of further concealed damages was huge. So yeah, like I said, it's never the goal to make people walk away. They're people that have fallen in love with this house and they've got to the point of engaging me as the last point of call.
So it's hard to tell people it's only happened a few times where people have actually walked away at the end. Because like I said, my goal is generally to help people understand the house more than give them a yes or no.
Michelle May: But I think for most buyers, they simply don't know what they don't know.
It's like when we start our due diligence process, they're like, oh, I never knew that this was important. You know, we look at things like infrastructure projects, but also zoning, They didn't know that next door was R3 zoned and potentially Meriton was going to come in and somebody was land banking in the hope that Inner West council is going to change the zoning, which you know the way things are going where they want more density closer to the city. It's quite likely that in the next number of years, you're going to have a massive development next door. If you never thought to ask those questions then, you might go ahead on something that might really change the course of your enjoyment of living there and let alone the value of the property as well.
And given how expensive properties are in Sydney, it's sometimes, you know, a mistake or an oversight that is going to take a long time to recover from, right?
Daniel Leahy: There are huge mistakes in relation to timing, and it's probably an unfortunate product of the Sydney market, but I saw a stat the other day, I forget where I read it, that people spend more time shopping for a car than choosing a house.
It shocked me until I actually thought about my experience buying houses and even as someone semi-in the industry. Definitely, I spend more time and I'm educated in the industry. So unfortunately it is a product of the Sydney market. It's so important to take the time and learn these things and do this research. And if you don't have time to do these things, you're making the biggest purchase of your life, engaging someone who has the time to do it.
Michelle May: You kind of answered my question. My second question already is like, what's the biggest oversight or mistake that buyers make when it comes to buying property?
So you're saying they're not taking enough time.
I think also, they know in a lot of cases, it's a four-week auction campaign. There's always competition. In a private treaty sense, there's even more pressure in a way because you need to beat others before they start the bidding process.
I sometimes have to pull buyers back as well. They go, Oh, we'll just go with the report that's been provided. I'm like, no, no, no. There's always time to get an independent report prior.
Daniel Leahy: If you've been looking, you should know the minute a property comes on the market, whether you're going to pursue it or not, you should have a rough idea of what it's going to sell for if you've done the research in the area and you'd have no idea the amount of people that call me on a Thursday afternoon or a Friday morning, asking me to do an inspection before the auction tomorrow. And it makes me cringe because I'm like, even if I get you this report, you're not going to have enough time to digest it, to go back and have another look at the house and sort of put the findings into perspective in person.
And, it shocks me, but as I said, it's an unfortunate sort of situation related probably to the Sydney market more specifically than other areas. You know, everything does go to auction. You don't want to get emotionally attached to something that will potentially be out of reach by the auction date.
You know, price guides are all over the place as far as Sydney is concerned.
That's putting it diplomatically.
That's another mistake, I guess. People sort of share their budget with me and then say, for example, you know, we're approved for $1.5m and we're looking at this property. The agents put a price guide of $1.45m on it. And in my gut, I know they're not going to get that property. And I don't like seeing people waste their money on the building and pest inspection if they end up out of the race. And that comes sort of a little bit down to the ethics of the agent involved, the way that they steer people in. But I've definitely been in that situation a number of times as well, where I had an agent sell a property before I'd even had the chance to get the report back to the client. So he showed me through the property and then by that afternoon, the lady called me and just said, Sorry, don't worry about writing the report. The property is gone. And he knew her price guide and everything. And I hate to say people, you know, waste their money on me. This service isn't a waste of money when done adequately.
But yeah, unfortunately, the way people are treated by agents is so inconsistent that they don't know where they stand with a lot of properties and As I mentioned before, if you don't have time to be looking at properties, every day, every evening, knowing when they come on and knowing what you're going to pursue, you shouldn't be doing the job for yourself.
I understand that to afford property in Sydney, a lot of people are very busy and have to be working full-time jobs, but that is a huge mistake is just not spending the time and doing the diligence.
Michelle May: Yeah, I also find that when people come to us, they've most likely been looking for at least six months to a year, if not longer.
And they have potentially already spent a couple of thousands of dollars on several reports and missed out every time. So they are kind of bruised, and over it. And then when I insist on getting a BNP, they're like, well, I don't really want to spend it unless I know I'm going to get it. But I'm like, well, the 500 bucks that you spend is, yes, it's a gamble however, we're now in a position where we know that you're going to be in the running to buy it because, you know, say, you know, your person with the $1.5 million budget. We're not looking at properties that have a guide of $1.45 million we always go, well, no more than $1.2 million, $1.3 million and also look at the sold section, like look at the sold section of Domain and Real Estate, look at what's sold under the $1.5 million and that gives you the idea of what kind of property you should be looking for instead of trying to fit what it is you want within your budget because that doesn't work you know? People come to me and say, " Well I need a three-bedroom." Well, that's great but the fact of the matter is the market doesn't care about what you need. The market is the market and if two-bedroom houses are going for $1.5 million you're not going to get a three-bedder for $1.5 million.
Daniel Leahy: And that's what I mean. It is tempting to push that price guide up and look at more desirable properties online, but you're just teasing yourself at the end of the day. You've got to be a bit more realistic.
Michelle May: All agents are different, but, by and large, the quote it low watch it go is definitely the philosophy within the industry because there are agents out there who do quote correctly.
And you do, I do find that they're not the biggest agents out there. The biggest agents are the ones that just, you know, keep going, keep going and quote low. And the funny thing is, when the buyers, when it comes to selling time, they want those agents to sell for them because they want all those buyers to come to the auction. So it's a tricky situation.
Daniel Leahy: Having bought and sold properties in the Inner West over a couple of years. It's so interesting to see the agent's processes at the selling side and at the, purchasing side and the agents I work with every day, looking at properties on behalf of my clients, the different faces that they put on when you're coming in as a buyer, seeing their processes at each end, there's no way that they don't know exactly where that property is going to land and the vendors expectations. All of those conversations have been had.
Michelle May: No, no. And that's a real bugbear of mine. Actually, with the office of fair trading, you know, there was recently the four corners report.
And they were saying, Oh, it's really hard to prove that agents are under-quoting. And I was literally screaming at the screen going, come into my office. I will show you the comparable sales. I will tell you exactly what the price range for that property is. And that price guide is nonsense, you know?
But even when they do catch an agent, the fines are like $2000. Like that's,
Daniel Leahy: That's nothing in the scope
Michelle May: Considering how much money is involved. It's the cost of doing business to them, it's, in my opinion, a joke.
Daniel Leahy: Over the last few years, there have been some definite surprises to everyone and some things that shouldn't happen, but you know, as I said, if you've been looking religiously or for someone like you, that's been looking for years consistently, you see some price guides and some things that come up and you just laugh at them.
But unfortunately, it does get people on the hook and, wastes another month of their time, wastes potentially another building and pest inspection. Like I said, I hate having to charge people when they don't even end up in the race. If they end up in the race and they don't get there, that's fine.
I think my record is six with a client. At that point, you are just starting to feel guilty, but this client in particular had absolutely no problem. They're like, there's no way we are risking the report that the agents laid out on the table for us. We don't mind the expense of going in with absolute clarity.
And these guys had a healthy budget and we're looking for nice properties that they didn't want to have to spend any money on. At the other end of the scale, I've had people shopping for bottom-end properties that they're planning on for the future and they don't want to have to put a cent into it.
So the building and pest inspection for them is really important because a lot of people in the current market are absolutely tapping out. They're tapping themselves to their absolute max and any unforeseen costs after purchasing are going to put them in real strife apart from all the other pressures we're dealing with as far as the cost of living at the moment.
Michelle May: What's also really hard is when and that's what I really like about you and working with you and my clients certainly appreciate it as well. They tell me after speaking with you as well. I mean, there's no such thing as a perfect property, right? That's a fallacy. Every property will probably have something that needs something, but it's then giving context and sort of reassurance about how much is it going to cost to rectify this.
And that's such an unknown quantity particularly, you know, since COVID and everything, you know, the cost of living, et cetera, everything's gone up. That, you know, it's, it's, you know, how long is a piece of string, really, you know, the house has got damp, but what's it going to take to fix it? And how much is it going to cost? I find that when I speak to other building and pest inspectors, it's, you know, I have done in the past, they're very hesitant to give any kind of reassurance and I feel that's kind of lacking as well in many ways. And I really appreciate you once they've received the report that you are open to discussing things with them to say, okay, well, yes, it's there, but it's not a big deal or, or this is, these are your options.
Because, you know, yes, like you said, you know, people stretch themselves so much already to purchase, they then, you know, they need money to fix those things as well.
Daniel Leahy: Yeah, it's exactly what you said, that there's no such thing as a perfect property. And that doesn't mean that every house is a lemon.
It's what I stemmed from before about understanding the property. And that's a point of difference that I really pride myself on, being independent and having the time to do that. I started out as a building and pest inspector with one of the national companies a few years ago. And to be honest, I didn't have the time to have these conversations with people and the way that they were managing my calendar and the way I was getting thrown around the zero time I had in between inspections, I didn't have time to field those phone calls and their conversations I wanted to have with people.
So I found the opportunity to go out on my own and I don't overbook myself. I don't overbook my days. I leave myself time because, in my mind, the conversation is more valuable than the report. The report has to happen. And of course, there is an element I can understand with those inspectors that are hesitant and need to protect themselves.
But for mine, that predominantly comes from a lack of industry experience where they don't quite know the answer comprehensively enough to stick their neck out. People can be pretty savage with us at the finish line and at the handover stage if they experience something in the home that they haven't understood or that they didn't pick up in the report.
They definitely try to hold you accountable well, they definitely plan to hold you accountable if there is a problem after moving in and so they should like trusting us to make a very, very important decision. But like I said, it's more about trying to understand the property. There's no such thing as a perfect property.
Michelle May: So obviously I always recommend getting one prior to purchase. Do you have a recommendation of how often you should repeat that process? Is once enough? Like, can you go off that report indefinitely or do you have an ideal timing with that?
Daniel Leahy: The reports as far as offering them to purchasers have a validity of 30 days.
So if they were written within 30 days, they're deemed valid. If they were written 30 days ago, then conditions are deemed to have changed. If we're talking about a post-sense of moving into the property, the Australian Standards for Timber Pest Inspection states every 12 months, you should do a visual timber pest inspection.
This sort of advice will be contained within the report because those things can change depending on the risk category of the property with termites. If it is deemed a very risky property we might pull the annual inspections in six or even three months if it's in an area surrounded by bush or high risk and in a sense where there are areas of risk and concealed areas that can't be accessed and can't be visually inspected adequately enough.
They're the properties we would recommend if they don't already have a termite treatment installed by a pest manager to investigate having that done.
Michelle May: What I find interesting is that most people's approach to their property is to not really do anything until it's a problem. So when you've got water cascading down your kitchen wall, it's like, Oh, I might have an issue with my roof.
And of course, it's much more satisfying to spend money on a new kitchen, or a new bathroom because you use it every day and it looks good and you add value, but I always say to my clients when you purchase Daniel's report that it is only the starting point. Look at those things and preemptively get those things fixed. I mean, there's so many properties that come through and there's no active termite treatment in place, and at the rate that Australian properties get hit with termites, I think that's like the bare bones. So I always say, the health of the property is very much dependent on the subfloor and what's happening in the roof.
So you've got to allocate, a budget to keeping those, the top and bottom in good conditions otherwise, really, you know, as you said, with that house that we saw, you know, termites could have a go at it and it doesn't matter if it's got a nice kitchen or not. It's falling down around you.
Daniel Leahy: Absolutely. Yeah. The roof is one of the most important parts of a house. And that's what I say to people often when the vendor's home, when was the last time you did some roof maintenance and they're like, Oh, yeah, what do you, what do you mean by that? And I say houses are like cars, they need servicing, and they need people to have a checkover.
So I've definitely had people that have lived in a house for a number of years and they said, I'd just like someone to come and have a look over it. It hasn't been done for a long time and they've finally thought about doing some maintenance, but it's exactly the same as a car. Houses aren't just a set and forget.
They need constant care, constant love and constant maintenance. On the topic of the roof external, There are obviously access limitations related to what we can do which are clearly outlined in the report. A lot of inspectors lean on those accessibility requirements to avoid going into areas.
And that is one of the main problems with the reports that a lot of the agents are using. I know with that property, particularly, we keep talking about Leichhardt, there was a subfloor access that was concealed by a desk in a bedroom. I've got no doubt in my head that another building and pest inspector would have walked in, taken a photo of that and said, No subfloor access where we discovered some pretty heavy termite damage.
And that goes for moving furniture. It goes for the size of openings, and the size of manholes. And I'll really endeavour to get into places where other guys don't and the roof external, which is such an important part of the home, the access requirements state that the no on-roof access is required that it is just a ladder to gutter scenario where you can throw an eye over from available areas of gutter that's reachable by a 3.6-meter ladder. And if we're talking about inner-city properties, that's pretty much zero properties. So a lot of guys will have the roof external as an area that they couldn't access. And for me, I will do my best. And that comes from, I'm of no obligation to do it, but that comes from being actively building and being working on construction sites and working at heights regularly and confidently and their decisions that I can choose to make if I feel that the access is possible and that it is still safe for me, of course, but some of those rooms are definitely, definitely being overlooked,
Michelle May: This is why I like working with independent people such as yourself, They're all owner-operators, so they own their own shop and they all consistently like yourself go that extra mile for the client because you can really count on them to do the best thing possible. So do you recommend then if that's the case, if there was some limited accessibility and the client does end up purchasing to do a post-purchase report where you will then maybe get an extra hole in the subfloor on those areas that it wasn't possible before? Do you do those kinds of inspections as well? Do you get called in for that type of stuff?
Daniel Leahy: Absolutely. I don't do the actual altering of the property. I don't have time. I definitely recommend some trades that can help them achieve what we need and get that access.
But I say to people, you know, if you do get one of those desktop reports, don't even look at the defects section initially. Go straight to the accessibility section and see where the inspector got. Go back to the property and take a look and see if you think those things are possible because again, it comes down to time.
I know what the calendars look like when you're working for someone else. I know the overheads that are being paid and what the inspector is actually being paid. So what does he have to output in a day to make money? So you see all the little increments of the processes that at the end of the day, cut down into the time spent on the property and with your client to help them understand. So, you know, sometimes, especially in a city, the access is genuine, these inner-city properties do definitely present some access limitations. They're being absolutely maximised from boundary to boundary and with ground clearance and, building out attics and things like that.
So sometimes it's legitimate, but yeah, there are definitely instances where guys are leaning on it and there is definitely scope to improve all of those accessibility things in the future. I have to thank them for this system that they've created because of the amount of work that it generates for me, double checking these reports and cross-checking them or, you know, people, the number of people that have gone in unconfidently and won the auction and then brought me in afterwards a little bit terrified because they've noticed a few things and to help them understand the property a bit more comprehensively. So I run this system as well. I work with a good group of trusted agents. I think that's how we met initially when you downloaded one of my reports that was available.
I've deliberately maintained separation from the big companies that are doing it in Australia. And I just do it independently because it's a great system and it is hard, charging people you know, $500 or $600 every time they're looking at a house and being unsuccessful. So I feel like the process is good, but like everything in Sydney property, it has evolved into a system that is, again, misleading buyers a little bit in some instances.
Michelle May: That's the whole purpose of this podcast, you know, to help buyers understand the risks and to make smarter property selections upfront and then go, okay, this property has got legs. Now let's investigate it further and then get someone like you involved in the process.
Now, one thing that always gets asked of me is when we do get a report and there is limited accessibility, my clients will often ask, well, can we ask them to get a hole created in the floor or get access to the attic? You know, can we ask the vendors, if they will put a hole in so that we can have a look?
My answer is a resounding no.
Daniel Leahy: Yeah, I've never seen a vendor allow further access. I've never seen it done.
I think there was one instance where a vendor was able to uncover a manhole for the roof space that was concealed within a cupboard, which just meant emptying the cupboard and moving the shelves and a re-inspection.
But resoundingly, no. Vendors At a point where all they're going to do is potentially uncover a problem more than a potential problem. So, you know, if you get a vendor at the start, they may be forthcoming and they may think, okay, this is reasonable. But when the auctions come this Saturday the resounding answer for most things, probably on your end contract amendments, everything, and people trying to make offers two days away from the auction.
The resounding answer when you've left yourself no time is no.
Michelle May: Absolutely. And I don't think, I mean, my advice would be, if you don't have the time, then don't go for it. I think it's too big a risk, we're talking millions of dollars. And even if it's, you know, less than a million, it doesn't matter. It's so much money. And if you don't have the time or the money to invest $500, or $600 into a building and pest, then you probably shouldn't be buying it in the first place.
Thank you so much, Daniel, for joining me. I've learned a lot in this half hour. I'm flabbergasted at the fact that they don't actually need any qualifications, but I'm so glad that we work together. And if people want to reach out to you after hearing this episode. Can you tell us where to contact you?
Daniel Leahy: Absolutely. Yeah, you can search me on Google for Dwell Property Inspections you'll find me located in the inner west. I cover the greater Sydney. A lot of work is in the inner west, eastern suburbs based, but I regularly travel to the central coast, western Sydney, north, northern beaches, and North shore. So I don't get bound by my location, but you can find the website at www. dwellproperty. com. au.
Michelle May: That's great. Do you want to give us your phone number in case people want to jot that down?
Daniel Leahy: Yeah, absolutely or phone on 0468 580 933.
Michelle May: Thank you, Daniel. I really appreciate you coming on and I hope you found this episode helpful.
If you have any questions for Daniel or myself, you can always contact me on hello@buyyourside.com.au. Until next time!